The Negative Toe "exploit Drama" in Assetto Corsa Competizione

YouTube video

Apparently in Assetto Corsa Competizione you can get a lot of pace by changing the setup to negative toe absurd levels.

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  1. Can someone explain to me what kind of advantages people are getting from this that aren't in line with what should happen in reality?
    The video just vaguely mentions better lap-times but where and how? Is is somehow faster on the straight? Or are they getting unrealistic grip levels? Or just implausiblely well handling?

  2. Its actually very simple:
    Every setting in a Sim that leads to much better laptimes than irl should be fixed. And of course anything which would not be feasible irl should be fixed too. Otherwise its not a SIM but a simcade. Period.

  3. Negative toe is faster in real life however it isn't used because reliability and car predictability is very erratic. Even in ACC changing toe is faster but it's makes the car snappy (heavy rotation around corners). Positive toe is typically used in drag racing because it improves straight line drivability (hence why you see it in passenger vehicle alignment) While negative toe (on the rear) is seen in circuit racing. As an Engineer, I believe it's not an exploit if the physics occurs in reality. Negative toe doesn't work on all tracks (take Monza for example) but it does on others which makes sense.

  4. I confirm I have got similar experience. Some months ago did my best time at Monza with the Ferrari with rear negative toe. That significantly improved my traction exiting at parabolica. However the car was pretty nervous.

  5. It's clearly a bug/exploit, and a fix is coming. I hope the ACC fanboys who roam every forum swinging their dicks around about how ACC is more realistic than anything else will shut up from now on. Every sim is a model of reality and all models have limitations and sometimes work strangely at the boundaries of the model parameter space.

  6. This highlights again what advantages lie in Polyphony's approach with the Balance Of Power setting in official online races. It just totally eliminates those issues and focuses on driver skill, which is more important and exciting anyways…

  7. IMO, if you call your product a simulator you should be constantly trying to mirror reality as closely as you can. Within the limits of current tech and reasonable cost, of course. If you start fudging things or allowing known exploits to go unfixed, then your sim is becoming a game. If the toe setting uses arbitrary numbers to represent certain actual degree values, that's fine, but it should be aligned and scaled intuitively. Don't tell me -4 is actually 0 degrees. That doesn't make sense and sounds like bullshit to me. 0 should be 0. If a setting of -4 is actually -1 degree, that's ok. Then I know each click is a quarter of a degree an the world makes sense again.

  8. Its been round for a long time imo it won't be patched just mitigated in any new cars added to the game ie the new gr3 M4 can only run -0.2 not the -0.4 available on older cars.

  9. holy shit SirFoch is still getting into these dramas even after his WoT days!

    but hey, at least there's a bigger chance of this being changed than whatever regurgitated dogshit WG passes as balanced

  10. In real life those values should mean 1. Getting up to PSI quickly
    2. Faster reaction and speeds in technical sectors
    3. Reduced top end so optimize d burst for qualifying.
    4. Short tire life extremely short
    5. Ideal for well…Sim Racing since irl life tire management for sprint/endurance racing is a thing.

  11. I have been saying from LOOOOOOONG time that the CAR feedback from Assetto corsa is TOTALLY WRONG and that FORZA Motorsport is the one I found that is most close to reality. Result Everyone saynin I was saying S#it, but I learn that is useless to talk with people that never drove a car and seen also Charles Leclerc not noticing this problem in ACC really made me think that some people just don't understand what they are driving, but on the other hand hes a Pilot, if they give you a toilet to race he will get the best out of it.
    This also explains why in ACC is difficult to control a car that slides, where you have to guess how much to countersteer to save the oversteer. I'm Happy someone noticed this issue and will make this and MOST of PC games great to drive.

  12. Thanks for explaining this RC, I don't see the big deal. It's Not like your going in and changing some hidden files or anything like that. It's right up front for anyone to see and use or try.

  13. Your right about the sim short comming thing and how to react… Like all sims even the ones in use by the military, NASA and ran on supercomputers can and will be wrong to real life, and saying I don't like this any more becuase this 1 small thing is unrealistic is blowing small things out of proportion… Like Rfactor 2 with it's aliens is still more realistic then Mario Kart 8 which is the less realistic Mario kart game wiith double dash being most realitic Mario Kart but much less so the any Need for Speed which are less realistic then any Forza… So if it bothers you don't use it and like the recent Virtual 24r of Le' mans in Rfactor 2 just ban it from events untill it is fixed.

  14. I've been incorporating this into my setups for almost 10 years to force cars in certain scenarios to rotate better right when getting on the power. It's strange that a sim like Competizione has such an exception. I still do this when I feel it's necessary in Assetto Corsa, but I did it mostly when playing Gran Turismo 6.

  15. Does AC1 also have something like that? I mean you mentioned that these types of strange setup values have been common in racing simulations and I would wonder if AC1, probably one of the oldest Sims still in use, doesn't have something like that. But I never experienced a strange setup-think in this sim.

  16. -0.4 doesnt sound very extreme, plus toe in logically should make the car more stable, so that seems to make sense to me, but running any kind of toe in/out is gunna generate more heat and wear in the tires over time. Seems normal to me, but maybe im not understanding the issue properly. Of course it is usually the case that you would run toe out on the fronts, rather than in. Are these half second lap time improvements happening within the first couple of laps of a stint or later in the stint, if its in the first couple of laps I have a theory on how that would work, but i could be wrong

  17. Realistically speaking -4 toes isn't that extreme. Will generate more wear from the outside and tire temps. Was running -4.2 and -4.5 front helped with handling and chewed through the front tire. That is on my real car front wheel drive.

  18. all sims have hack setups, any top teams are aware of them. I've spent hundreds of hours finding them to build for $$$$$$

  19. There are 2 big reasons why I don’t play ACC much on PS4 Pro. The menu’s won’t work w/ my preferred R383 rim or controller w/ it on, and the steering feels like the ffb annoyingly has a square wave that I haven’t felt on any other sim (a YouTuber recently had the same complaint w/ ACC on PC when testing a new dd wheel ).

    I haven’t really tried to push the settings to extreme levels w/ ACC but there did seem some drawbacks in PC1 & 2, but I have set up almost ever car in the entire Grand Tourismo series w/ up to 4.5 deg of neg camber b4 noticing any negative side effect. Also it helped significantly in almost every car regardless of car or type (Eg LMP, Indy, F1, GT3, road cars, fwd, rwd, awd, front/mid/rear engine, etc).

  20. Iracing had issues with gaining time by running rear toe out. They did a band aid fix by just not allowing settings below zero.

  21. I'm a software developer and when we test software we do it the monkey way. Try everything everywhere. If I was managing or were a part of e-sports team, I would try every setting not just setups of the car but even graphical and sound settings if they give some kind of advantage. Like sound for Tires above everything else is helping you hear better when tires slip.

    So all this drama and bickering is a bad look for everyone. If ONE/SOME e-sports team didn't know about this AND compete at the highest level AND others were using this AND this bug/setup gives so much advantage… Someone isn't honest here, IMO.

  22. eSports teams being annoyed this was made public shows how useless eSports is for the simracing hobby in its current state.

  23. according to one of the kunos devs (in the DDC chat in the RCI discord if you want to see for yourself) the setup values are correct because they are just offsets from 0, not true values. so it's almost certainly a physics engine problem.

  24. ACC is a great game, but there is one thing that i really dont understand. ACC is the official GT World Challenge game. The final standings of the GT World Challenge in 2021:
    1. Mercedes
    2. Lamborghini
    3. Audi
    Are these cars really the best in the OFFICIAL game? I dont really think that so much e-sports drivers out there, who choose from these cars for a full championship season… McLaren's best result in Europe was two P4, but now the official game is more or less a McLaren simulator…

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